The Water Fuel Cell

[eclipsed78]

Hi
I think it is important to work torward trying to understand what stan did in his circuit and I have come up with a very ruff draft

What I am showing is probably not right, it probably isnt even close, but I am going to try to understand what is in the circuit and find what components are used to understand their function to then make a more basic circuit made from analog components...

I have made by best effort to show the circuit in its intirety to make it more organizied so it can fit on 1 page...Ive included what some of the parts could be but not nessacarly are exactly right..I also don't know what some components are and I was hoping someone might help out and share..the components I do not know are:

A4

A6

A28-A30

A36

I want to understand the circuit to make a more easily made one to allow others to make it..

[Ron Knight]

Eclipsed78,

Nice work on the circuit extension, you have done an excellent job.
I will show your expansion print to one of my co-workers (an electronics engineer) and see if he can ID some of the other components for us.

I think you should start a new thread in Water Fuel Cell Resources and Projects Section identified as Complete Electronics Schematics with Parts List and post it there. It will surely get more play there with a request for help IDing the components.

[2curious4WFC]

Nice man,

now, add little icons and names on each signal indicating the signal (square wave with varying duty cycle, analog, saw tooth, PLL Inhibit) ect.

A28, A29, A30 are dividing IC, most likely CD4013 not relais, I disagree with Ron on that.

.

[eclipsed78]

Hi,
I was doing some research and found a educational experimentation lab work at:

http://zebu.uoregon.edu/~rayfrey/431/lab5_431.pdf

and they use a divide by N counter (CD4040)

and looking at A28 - A30 I was wondering if they might be the CD4040 or similar...I dont know too much about D flip flops or divide by N counters so Im not sure if they can do the same...
I think wiki says that T flip flips can do the same...but again im nowhere near being an an amature..let alone an expert...

"http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flip-flop_(electronics)"

I think Im wrong on the A1 & A2, and A3 & A6...not sure exactly what they are...but it looks like those 6 ICs in figure 2 drive a hexidecimal display..one of them could be a multiplexer, but maybe there is a demultiplexer in there and a buffer....Im not sure if they do anything else though becuase I dont know what chips they are...but i do think they must be important for some reason..

I left out an IC, A22 looks like a voltage regulator coming off of an altinator..

[Ron Knight]

[emuntinga]

hi
i try to build te circuit but only the pll part

a28,a29,a30 are cd4017 in 10/ so 5000hz /10 is 500hz/10 is 50hz/10 is 5hz
so the led wil blink at 5 hz.


ernst

[eclipsed78]

Hi emuntinga,
You seem very knowledgeable about the pll ciruit and I was messing with my 4046s today on a bread board and found that the output indead matches the input signal...cool stuff..snort snort lol...

I am impressed with your schemactic pin layout inculding component values..that is exactly what I was hoping to get as a response to help us along...As if I would have anything, I would share it too..

I have only a couple of questions though, hope you dont mind..
1st what do you think the values of R45, R50, and R52 are?

And second, what frequency range can your pll scan and what center frequecy do you expect?
I was hoping for a circuit that could scan from 100kHz to 0Hz with a center frequecy of 50 KHz just in case...and if the circuit you are testing is not setup for that, how would you change it to allow it to scan 0-100 KHz?

Lastly, stan uses a resonant scanning circuit (Figure 8) from pins 1,2, and 9 on the pll..using possibly a 555, what do you think the fucntion of that circuit would be and do you have any understanding how you would go about using that circuit?

Ive been starting to doubt that A31 in figure 8 is a 555 and it maybe possible that the circuit is a diodeless peak hold circuit witha an AD532 and a comparitor U3 but it is missing the 4538..I found it with the schemactic that allows me to experiment with my plls...here is the page that has a bunch of circuits that has links to the pll setup and a diodeless peak hold..

http://www.elektroda.net/cir/index/Hobbyist%20Essentials/Hobbyist%20Essentials.htm

the pll schematic I tested today (BTW anyone see a resemblence of 74C90 divider for A41,A42, and the 2nd A42?)
http://www.elektroda.net/cir/index/Hobbyist%20Essentials/X10%20FREQUENCY%20MULTIPLIER.htm

and the peak hold circuit
http://www.elektroda.net/cir/index/Hobbyist%20Essentials/DIODELESS%20PEAK-HOLD%20CIRCUIT.htm

Thanks again and keep up the good work!

[emuntinga]

hi

r45 is for the offset for the pll (don't now the value yet)
r50 and r52 are 150ohm at 5volt
a32 could be lm741
also updated first picture (gated timer)

[emuntinga]

and the driver

this is all experimental setup


ernst

[2curious4WFC]

eclipsed,

the function of the PLL scanning circuit is to guide the PLL frequency trough it's entire range
using a triangular shaped signal.
Somewhere in this range the PLL will detect a phase match (e.g. our electrical resonance) once
this happens the PLL locks on and takes over the control voltage for the VCO and maintains
from this point on a phase lock of the signal even when frequency changes.
(thats what the FETs are for, they switch over the scanner VCO voltage with the PLL VCO voltage from the RC filter)

Also, note SM had means of manually scan the frequency range using a Pot and the switch.

SM used in fact a 555 for the PLL scanner, the output of this circuit provides a triangular shaped
pulse wave form signal. This is consistent with his remarks

[eclipsed78]

hi emuntinga and 2curious4WFC,
Im glad we are seeing progress here becuase I think the PLL is important for this to work becasue the freq and phase of the induced signal voltage from the cell will constantly change whether it being a different dielectric or the sinodial wave form from cavitation bubbles...

emuntinga,
I really like what youve done, and it seems that you have almost ready to or have tried out the circuit...The reason why I would like to see the pll range up to 100kHz is because in order for sonochemical reactions to occur, it needs to be in the ultrasonic frequencies...20KHz and up...Im hoping that maybe someone could give me an idea on how the pll and 555 scanner could be set up this way and have a 10 KHz scanning range..with the center freq of about 20K to 50K Hz..Im still wondering what this setup has as a range for freq sweep and what range that sweep has along with a center freq..
Also, can figure 5 be replaced with a high powered N channel mosfet?

2curious4WFC,
I see now that it is a 555 and understand what it is doing now...and ya I know this is going really good...and just like I was asking emuntinga, how would I setup the pll with 0 - 100KHz range like above?

Below is quotations from the brief and remember stan describes only one (1) 3 inch tube capacitor..using 0 to 10 KHz but the capacitor that ran his car was multiple tubes about 1.5 feet long and if we are to run generators from ICEs we are going to need a higher frequency..also, I noticed that he doesnt say that the resonant condition is due to the LC cicuit but the "resonant condition IN the water capacitor", this is just speculation but I think that is meaning either the dielectric change or the induced signal from the sonochemical reaction..

Again, 0 - 100 KHz I think is the goal so we can have a circuit that will run all size water capacitors.. and Im hoping to get the dividers, gates, and fets next pay check but im alittle low right now...lol..
Thank you for all your help guys, lets keep up the pace..

[2curious4WFC]

Hi eclipsed,

let's assume you have build the 555 scanner as shown. You will see the voltage will vary in between
about +1V to +11V (provided your power supply is set to 12V on the 555).

Then you need to run the 4046 design tool, enter your desired frequencies and scan voltages (e.g. +1V to +11V)
and you get your resistor and capacitor values calculated to have the PLL and low pass filter operate as
you want it.

Checkout this site, there are some software design tools for the 4046 PLL available for download.

http://www.circuitsage.com/pll.html

Cheers

[emuntinga]

hi

the best is to switch with transistors for resonant action
a mosfet don't switch as a transistor

ernst

[eclipsed78]

hi all,
so the mosfet is out, thats cool theyre 9 bucks a piece anyways.. :)

I hope I dont sound like a complete idiot about electronics but I am very new to this stuff...I value your help highly, both of you, and I do have a couple questions about that PLL design site....

1st what is "transfer function level" because there is software that designs pll with input and calculates what is needed but its at the transfer function level...I tried to google it but I still dont understand it..

also, do you guys think this is a 1st order, 2nd order, or 3rd order PLL...

I am currently having a plate professional polished with 800, 1000, and 1200 grit sand paper to see how well it comes out to improve its hydrophilic properties..and a Power torriod tested for inductance from 10kHz to 100KHz...It is an off the shelf torriod that comes from a Xray machine...lol...so if this works, the torriod can be purchased and the chokes and the pickup coil can be wound around it..I think it will allow reproduction much easier if the primary and secondary is already wound...

Lastly, we were going over the circuit and have a disagreement on the input signal that is going into the inhibit of the 4046 (pin 5)...The way I see it, the gated pulse frequency inhibits the pll to make the same gated pulse frequency on the output of the vco...but a conflicting opionion says that the gated pulse frequency is limiting the pll and should not be there at all to allow the pll to run at full capacity...which doesnt make sence because I dont understand how the pll would be able to make the gated pulse frequency...

Thx again...

[emuntinga]

hi

the gated pulse shuts the pll off for a 0.5hz
so the pll makes a range of pulses and a off time enz enz

i have a book from THE FORREST MIMS CIRCUIT SCRAPBOOK VOLUME 1
in that book you will find a lot of info about the pll 4046

ernst