The Water Fuel Cell

[eclipsed78]

Hi all,
here is what I have so far...produces small amount of gas through the VIC, as much as just using the function generator..I need someone to help me and replicate what I have done so far..and possible see something I didnt, because I am not the best at electronics....Funny thing is that the 50V PS shows .6A but using the multimeter clamp shows only about 50mA entering the cell...needs to be more efficient...
I need help with this, someone replicate the circuit...

Tech notes:
the pll has a maximum lock freq using a 1/RC freq in hz pin 11 and timing cap pin 6&7, its pin 11 resistor that sets this max freq...center freq depends on timing cap...

the scanning circuit has a triangle wave, and the opamp needs at least 10V (I had 13.8 V on hand) in order to not cut the wave form off, 10V can be used but the integrator must be calibrated using the pots,

the switch 4016, can only handle 5V with its Vcc of 5V (input to pll must be 5V if plls Vcc is 5V) so a pot or two resistors needs to bring it down from 13.8V from the integrator (opamp scanning circuit) to a symetric wave form..If the bottom of the triangle wave starts at .9V then the top can only be 4.1V...any higher will confuse the pll...the values I have should work...

the 1st order lag lead low pass filter has an output of a dc Voltage component only, as freq goes up, dc V will too..when red light is blinking, the input to the VCO pin 9 will be a cross between the triangle wave and the DC V ...when it is off, the input to pin 9 should be a triangle wave..when its solid red, it should be the DC V

maybe some tests at higher freqs could allow the dividers to work, but it works without them...

the input to the driver circuit had a wave form that looks inverted..so using a nor gate, the signal would be inverted, if that is not the best, an AND gate or simmilar, must be used to drive the first transistor so the pll is not driving it...

[eclipsed78]

Hi,
did some more testing today, and although the driver circuit works, needs to be more efficient....maybe the buz350 or the nte2376 mosfets would work better....I will be trying to figure it out...the literature on transistors and mosfets is extensive, it may take awhile...

[eclipsed78]

Hi,

Drivers:
http://waterfuelcell.org/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=1131&sid=b74b6356c6575e228f8629d4a9104db2

[bringpowertothepeople]

Hi eclipsed i just constructed my feedback pulse indicator and it takes the signal and transform into 50% duty cylcle pulse signals. Right.

I'm geting confuse because i tryied before the 7490 counters and it seem to create a range selection like 0- 100 hz my pll freq than 100-500hz than 500hz-5khz and so one but with 4017 this don't happen do you know why?

Thank you

[eclipsed78]

Hi,

The 7490 is a divider that would most likely be used with the PLL not the pulse indicator or sencing circuit....

The 7490 has multiple dividing denominations...the CD4017 is only a 10x multiple divider...therefore its possible that you could have multiple ranges if you use different outputs of the 7490....

But I believe I never was able to get the dividers to work perfectly...but the resistors that were switched on the pll changed the frequency range by changing the center frequency....Its been along time since I have have this circuit running (due to needed space on the proto board)...but I am not sure if the dividers were really needed or doing anything important....although I can speculate that if the resonant frequencies were very high, then the dividers were used to increase the accuracy of the pll...I think, but Im not sure anymore....I would have to review the research and references that I have to refresh my own understanding of the pll but I am not to that point yet....

[HardKrome]

I have built this circuit and it works. Thanks for the help Eclipsed.

[keithturtle]

Howdy all;

You mentioned the difference between the PS meter and the DVM

"....Funny thing is that the 50V PS shows .6A but using the multimeter clamp shows only about 50mA entering the cell...needs to be more efficient... "

Early on I realised there is a limit to what a DVM can read for amperage, when the cell is pulsed.

I was advised by my physics prof that most OU claims center around reconciling with the following-

The actual power consumed in a sine wave is a calculus function, and a rather complex one at that.

Since I don't grasp much of calculus, I won't try and explain the formula. I did find it, however, in an Air Force report on the effects on PWMing a cell to boost output. I guess they were concerned about accuracy.

On [the pdf page #] page 22 of this document,

http://www.free-energy-info.co.uk/P1.pdf

that formula appears. There's a (15) next to it, and it's on page 12 of the actual document.

There, that's clear as mud. Pond muck, to be precise.

Anyhow, this might help to explain the swither you find yerself in over disagreeing ammeters.

I think.

Turtle, haid stuck in the muck

[eclipsed78]

Hi HardKrome,

Good Job on the reproduction of the circuit....let me know if you are able to suggest anything that will make it either easier or better and also if you have used different component values with different voltage sources within the circuit....

Hi Turtle,

As I understand it (I could be wrong), the integrated power of the instantanious voltage multiplied by the instantanious current over a period of time will yield the total power of one pulse.....notice that a resistor will act under the equation E=IR...where as if voltage or current increase, and the resistance stays the same, then current or voltage will increase respectively in turn in regards to the E=IR.....but if a capacitor has a high DF (DF >> 1), then it will act more like a resistor.....

If the capacitor has low DF, it become more complex...(this is where im not sure of)

I think that if the apparent power is calculated (P=EI) from RMS ripple voltage and RMS ripple current of a full wave rectified AC signal within a charging and discharging of a capacitor that has a DF < 1 is measured, then this will be the estamate of the same calculation...but Im not sure....

As to what I was refering to of the measurements that I had made...Im not sure anymore exactly what the conditions were but....this was done on a SBLSC cell (single phase under 50 KHz) which would act more of a resistor than a capacitor.....but I think I was refering to the driver efficiency and the DF of the SBLSC cell.....

Hope that helps....

[keithturtle]

Yes, that does shed some light on it.

Thanks for breaking it down

Turtle

[handyandy]

eclipsed78,

Where was the prototype schematic located from as it's different from the patented pll schematic. Thanks.

Andy

[eclipsed78]

Hi handyandy,

The Phase lock loop circuit schematic picture is not exactly like the original patent but the picture was put together with pictures of the orginal patent.....the circuit could be completely wrong from the orginal circuit.......but the pll circuit shown above does "lock on" to a resonant frequency signal output from a split sencing coil on the resonant core if one were to use a dual core VIC...

[handyandy]

Hi Eclipsed78,

Thanks for replying. I have been wondering where this schematic came from and recently another iteration popped up at energeticforum.com using that circuit and modifying it. Are you saying that the circuit is one that you designed from the patented PLL circuit? I don't care as long as something works the simpler the better. Dave Lawton has recently published his version of a PLL too. I wish the component values were included in the original Meyer patent.

Andy

[handyandy]

I checked the schematic again. It says (My dividers don't lock in). Did you make additional changes so that it would work?

Andy

[eclipsed78]

Hi handyandy,

I am pleased that more people are understanding, using, and even modifing the pll circuit that I have posted......it really isnt that hard of a circuit once the individual components are understood and Im sure most of the people that are posting their version is not from my version....there was a group effert in making this circuit.....I am not going to take full credit for simply making a pll circuit work....but as I was trying to make the circuit, I did follow the patent that showed the individual components as well as books and online references...but I didnt include somethings that I thought were not nessessary to make the circuit work...although those things that I did not include might have made possible what the patent suggests.....and yes, it would have been much easier to have those values...

since the original posting, instead of increasing the efficiency of the pll (as in, using the dividers for either increasing the range of locking or somehow using them for frequency multiplying), I focused on what the pll could be sencing.....after understanding what the pll could be sencing, I have focused on converting complex power into potential chemical energy.....there might be more than one way to do so...but I believe that the PVDF/H2O MDC will allow me to start indirectly measuring the dielectric strength of water.....although it might proove impossible in the end, I think it is a valid experiment, and I have not seen data showing otherwise...

[handyandy]

Well then I thank you and all others who were party to it. It seemed to appear out of nowhere so it made me wonder. I wasn't aware of the history and from appearance it came from a secret compartment in Stan's roll-top desk. WhaddoIknow? Seems to me the feedback pickup winding is getting a signal from the wfc and the bemf from the coil. When it hits its peak then there's resonance. My 2 cents. I have looked at an interesting chip someone sent me info on may be of interest to others too the xr2206.

Andy